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« Inspiring Words for Hard Times - A Thought Before Easter | Main | The Right Word »

April 16, 2006

Comments

Roxanne -

I don't get the thing about anti-americanism either. What person, real or imagined, with any political influence or power, has expressed what would truthfully be considered "anti-americanism."

Shuggy

I'm assuming by now you will have seen Norman Geras' post in response to this? I followed the link from there. He deals in more detail with your point where you say, "It's not a "departure from universal principles," it's a crime against humanity". It's not clear to me why you seem to think this is some sort of euphemism; it is not. Torture - all torture - is a crime against humanity precisely BECAUSE it is a departure from universal principles. Indeed, one cannot operate with a concept of 'humanity' itself being violated WITHOUT such a conceptual framework of universal principles. This is why some of us are in fact supporters of Amnesty International - but this doesn't forbid us from criticising them when we feel they've lost a certain sense of historical proprtion. If you disagree, I'd be interested to hear you're argument. As it stands, this is a non-argument.

On anti-Americanism: it is simply opposition to, indeed hatred of, America because it is America - not because of Kissinger, US foriegn policy in general, or any other legitimate basis on which one could criticise your republican polity. It is rather found in the idea that the United States is uniquely malevolent and responsible for all of the world's ills and, crucially, reponsible for no benefits whatsoever. Again, if you disagree, I'd be interested to hear you're argument and specifically, by what historical standard one would hold the United States to in this regard? This is the form of thinking that allows people who sincerely believe themselves to belong to the wide church of the centre-left to prefer the most fascistic, reactionary, ultra-nationalist and obscurantist political movements and regimes on the face of the planet simply because they have set themselves in opposition to the United States.

More generally it is opposition to America based on the belief that liberal capitalism is the most malign social arrangement in human history. One doesn't have to be a supporter of either liberalism or capitalism to see the absurdity of this position. Again, if you disagree, it would be interesting to hear what historical precedents you are using as your frame of reference.

Shuggy

I'm assuming by now you will have seen Norman Geras' post in response to this? I followed the link from there. He deals in more detail with your point where you say, "It's not a "departure from universal principles," it's a crime against humanity". It's not clear to me why you seem to think this is some sort of euphemism; it is not. Torture - all torture - is a crime against humanity precisely BECAUSE it is a departure from universal principles. Indeed, one cannot operate with a concept of 'humanity' itself being violated WITHOUT such a conceptual framework of universal principles. This is why some of us are in fact supporters of Amnesty International - but this doesn't forbid us from criticising them when we feel they've lost a certain sense of historical proprtion. If you disagree, I'd be interested to hear your argument. As it stands, this is a non-argument.

On anti-Americanism: it is simply opposition to, indeed hatred of, America because it is America - not because of Kissinger, US foriegn policy in general, or any other legitimate basis on which one could criticise your republican polity. It is rather found in the idea that the United States is uniquely malevolent and responsible for all of the world's ills and, crucially, reponsible for no benefits whatsoever. Again, if you disagree, I'd be interested to hear you're argument and specifically, by what historical standard one would hold the United States to in this regard? This is the form of thinking that allows people who sincerely believe themselves to belong to the wide church of the centre-left to prefer the most fascistic, reactionary, ultra-nationalist and obscurantist political movements and regimes on the face of the planet simply because they have set themselves in opposition to the United States.

More generally it is opposition to America based on the belief that liberal capitalism is the most malign social arrangement in human history. One doesn't have to be a supporter of either liberalism or capitalism to see the absurdity of this position. Again, if you disagree, it would be interesting to hear what historical precedents you are using as your frame of reference.

Shuggy

Oops - sorry.

Shuggy

Oops - sorry.

Shuggy

Actually, I'm not sorry - it's your goddam commenting system. What's that all about?

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